Attrocities & the media

[peana]

Is it just me, or does the media seem to be having a field day with graphic and horrendous images of late?

There have been some absolutely terrible stories recently, and it is essential that the media report on them, but some of the full-colour front page spreads I've seen recently have been very disturbing.  I know they need to be attention grabbing to sell copies, but there has to be a limit to what is shown on the front page.  I can't imagine what nightmares some children must be having.

I know it probably sounds naive to suggest they change the manner of reporting but could they not moderate what they show on the front?  There seems to be a battle to out do the other papers, and publish worse and worse images.  It is vital that we know about these attrocities so we can attempt to prevent them happening again, but there has to be a limit to how it is reported - coming home through London last night there was no escape from a barrage of photos.  Do the press really think we need so much 'titilation' to read an article - it reminds me of freak shows and I find it distasteful and patronising.  Surely if the press are unable to regulate themselves they run the risk of censorship being introduced?

As a final note, what is going on in the command of the military that the guys on the ground feel able to behave in this way?  

Apologies if I've caused offence to anyone.  I know feelings run high on these topics.

[gee4]

Peana - the story with the Mirror recently was that the paper was reported to have been asked how much they would pay for pictures of Iraqi's being abused by British troops.  What happened allegedly was, that these pics were faked, sent to the paper, which they in turn printed (and believed were real), making the general public also believe that these pics were real.  Experts have now proved that these pics were indeed fake and there is a possibility the newspaper will be held for libel.

The media are obv up for printing anything to sell copy.

G

[countrigal]

Just as a point of reference, as I get first hand reports from non-media personages in the war, remember that mundane issues don't sell papers/tv so media will only report the negatives, and will blow them up as much as possible.  I personally ignore most anything reported on national news, since they are often inaccurate or incomplete, and wait for information from what I consider more accurate sources.  I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the treatment of the prisoners and what is being conveyed through the media.  I'm just reminding folks that one or 2 instances can and will be blown out of proportion by the media until such time as it appears that it is happening that way all the time, everywhere, while they ignore all the good and positive things that are happening.  Same with the bombings and ambushes... sure they're happening, but it's not as often as they portray them to be and there is a lot more positive sentiments from local nationalists than is being portrayed in the media.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that the media really needs to start "policing" themselves, ensuring accuracy and completeness of their reports, not trying to bias folks one way or the other, and if they start doing that, it should naturally start controlling what is used as grabbing photos.

CountriGal
Peer Moderator

[bethalize]

I think you'll find that President Bush has apologised for the abuse which suggests that it did, in fact happen. The witnesses coming forward would also lend to that.


Bethalize
Peer Moderator

[supergirl]

Well put, CG.

[patphi]

The media does this all the time.  I'm a little older than most you gals so let me begin:
There was the Democratic National Convention in Chicago - I was there watching.  What I say happen on the streets of Chicago is not what I saw on TV.  It was blown way out of proportion.
Then there is the whole thing with Viet Nam and the attrocities there.  I had many family members in the military during that time and they all told me that while those things happened they were not as previlant as the media showed it to be.  Also, they never showed the children some as young as 5-6 that would walk into a camp with  live, set grenda strapped to their bodies.  The purpose to blow up as many Americans as possible.
If it is so embarassing for an Iraqui to be seen nude by others so bad that you have to leave Iraq.  Then why in heavens name would you point out your picture to international TV.  Where can you go live that someone has not seen the picture?
Just don't believe everything you hear or see on TV.

[sk0606]

I am more appalled by the conduct of the military than in the media.   Here's a great article from the New Yorker that first broke the story.  
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

[carolanne]

Again, beware anything you get from the media, as it always has one slant on it.
This was received via e-mail the other day, with no mention of source.  It is accurrate though.  Sheds a different light on things.

"INTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS:
The Truth About Brutal Interrogations in Iraq

May 5, 2004: Pictures of American soldiers humiliating and intimidating Iraqi prisoners have become a major news item. What is generally left unsaid is what influence this will have on intelligence work in Iraq, and elsewhere, in pursuit of terrorists. The Iraq incidents apparently involved civilian contractor interrogators and a number of reservist MPs.

The reservists were men and women who had recently been converted from other military jobs to Military Police (MPs). The Iraq operations required a lot of MPs, and one of the traditional MP jobs is guarding prisoners. It was always feared that the newly trained MPs, lacking many experienced MP NCOs and officers to supervise them, would get into trouble.

In Iraq, thousands of Iraqis have been arrested on suspicion of supporting or participating in attacks on coalition troops, or on Iraqis who support the new Iraqi government. Since these attacks began to escalate last Summer, the pressure was on the intelligence troops (who did the interrogating and analysis of information obtained) to find out who was doing it. That effort was successful, as an increasing number of raids shut down more and more of the Sunni Arab groups who were still fighting to preserve the traditional position of Sunnis as the rulers of Iraq. By early this year, many, if not most, of the remaining attackers were concentrated in the Sunni city of Fallujah and surrounding towns.

But late last year, a number of American soldiers began to complain to
their superiors that the methods used on the Iraqi prisoners seemed to be excessive, if not illegal. Investigations were conducted and those found violating the army regulations (on how to deal with interrogations) were being identified and prosecuted under military law. But the army investigations became known to the media earlier this year, along with pictures of Iraqi prisoners being brutalized, and the matter became a major media event.

The interrogations of Iraqis was always a tricky business, as the brass
were increasingly demanding “more information” towards the end of 2003. In past wars, situations like this meant that the treatment of tight lipped prisoners became increasingly brutal. In most cases, these incidents never reached the media. The crises passed, the war ended, and everyone went home.

But during the Vietnam war, there was a media increasingly hostile to the military, and an increasingly unpopular war. Some of the brutal Vietnam era interrogation incidents became news stories. Nothing much came of it, and there was little talk of similar incidents in earlier wars.

The Vietnam experience was remembered by the intelligence and MP
communities, and regulations were laid down describing what could, and
could not, be done when trying to get life and death type information out of prisoners. Off the record, and usually over a few drinks, it was
acknowledged that in a future war, if the situation became serious enough (Americans were in immediate danger if prisoners were not made to talk), the regulations would be ignored. But no one said it out loud, and most hoped that they would not be in command of an intel or MP unit under thoseconditions. But it did happen, and now the officers, NCOs and troops involved will be punished. It’s another cost of war. Speeches and promises will be made about how horrible it all is, and how it will never happen again. But it will.

There are less brutal, and effective, methods of getting information out
of prisoners. But these methods (best described as “psychological pressure and mind games”) require skilled interrogators that speak the same language as, and understand the culture of , the prisoners. No way these conditions are going to be achieved in Iraq or Afghanistan in the short term. The Iraqis themselves, or Arab police in general, did not favor such techniques, but usually went straight to methods far more brutal than what the American soldiers are accused of.

The uproar over the excessive interrogation methods will lead to numerous restrictions on interrogators and much more scrutiny of how interrogations are conducted. Because the incidents have become major media and political issues, the interrogations will be less productive for a while. As a result of this, attacks on coalition troops will be more frequent and successful. In war, information is a matter of life and death. So more Americans will die as a result of all this. Few will raise the issue in these terms. Instead, much will be made about how unnecessary and counterproductive the brutality was. However, the Iraqis most likely to be angered by the brutality are the Sunni Arabs, who have provided the support (and manpower) for the attacks all along. A major reason for the attacks is the Sunni Arab realization that once elections are held, and the Shia Arabs and Kurds (80 percent of the population) are in power, the treatment of prisoners will get a lot worse. The Shia and Kurds have long lists of Sunni Arabs they know (or strongly suspect) committed atrocities against them for decades. The Shia and Kurds will want justice, and they will conduct interrogations to obtain additional information. Despite training of a new Iraqi police force, the Shia interrogations of Sunnis will most likely revert to the traditional Arab methods.

The Arab media made much of the brutality of American interrogators, but said little about Saddam’s decades of interrogations in the Arab style. Apparently if Arabs are brutal to Arabs, it isn’t news. But if non-Arabs do it, it’s a war crime, or worse.   Not that it matters much. War is brutal, and tends to get more brutal as the death rate increases. That does not appear to have changed much over several thousand years of human history.

Ultimately, the Sunni Arab violence and brutality are an Iraqi problem.
The coalition had hoped they could contain it until they handed power over to an elected Iraqi government. At that point, all the foreigners could go home, and safely criticize the democratically elected Iraqi government for their brutal treatment of the Sunni Arabs. That will happen, but with more coalition deaths in the meantime."

[supergirl]

I never trust "truth" that doesn't list a source.  Who is behind it, and where are they getting their information?  

We Americans pride ourselves on being the good guys, taking the high road.  This prison debacle is an aberration, but let's not try to justify it.  The people involved need to be punished, no matter how high it goes, or how embarrassing for us.

That being said, I continue to believe that we are doing the right thing by being in Iraq, and I am sick of the media trying to portray it otherwise.  Foxnews.com ran an interesting interview with Thomas Hamill that is worth a read.

[gee4]

What I don't understand is (and feel free to call me a dumb blonde), who took these photos eg. British/US soldiers, where were the photos developed, how did the media obtain them and did the troops think they would not get punished if these pictures got out?

G

[carolanne]

G,
what I understood was that these are digital photos taken and sent back to one of the military member's family.  How it went from them to the news, who knows.  I've also heard that they may have been leaked by military members who felt that this was wrong treatment and wanted to uncover it, but that is strictly speculation by anyone I've heard it from.

Super, the excerpt I quoted is from an e-mail written by a Colonel in the military, currently serving just outside of Baghdad.  I know the gentleman.  I also know that he does research before putting things like this in writing since he knows how it can come back to haunt one otherwise.  That's why I trust it as truth.  This was forwarded to me by his wife and I've withheld both their names at their request as the information is being shared enough via e-mail.

[gee4]

All very interesting - thanks Carolanne.

G

[supergirl]

Thanks for clarifying, Carolanne.

SG

[ozbound]

What gets me is that the person who took & released those pics of the flag-draped coffins here (which to me looked very respectful) was disciplined, yet here come these practically-pornographic pics of the abuse of Iraqis and nobody's slapped on the hand for shoving those in our children's faces.

That bewiIderment notwithstanding, I am much more angry about the atrocities than the publishing of the  pictures. The truth is the truth and it needs to be brought to the light. And to justice. (and hopefully the poor kids who see these pictures have good adult guidance!)

A Korean War POW I saw on the news this morning said it best. The soldiers blaming their actions on commands from above is a copout. Everyone is ultimately responsible for their own actions. The cycle of violence has to be stopped, somewhere!

[countrigal]

And I have it from some folks who are there and seeing this stuff first hand... punishment is being brought to those responsible for this, at the lowest level and on up.  Control was lax in many ways for some of the military over there, and that has since been resolved, so hopefully these type of occurrences won't happen again.

What one soldier wrote to his wife summed up everything the best for me though.  The media is so wrapped up on the treatment of these prisoners that they'll give it all this airtime and print, but watch how much print and airtime the beheading of that American will get.  The beheading will be old news while the treatment of the prisoners will be focused on again and again, keeping it in front of everyone.  And both are wrong actions.

CountriGal
Peer Moderator