PA and Secretary Community - Deskdemon.com

I've just read that a third of working mums send their sick kids to school because they can't take the time off work (DD-news alerts).  Made me feel really bad because I've done this a few times when they have colds and invariably the school calls my mobile and asks me to come and pick them up anyway and the boss is none to happy.  Sometimes I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.  How's your boss when you ask time off to care for family?

I resigned from a fairly well paid job once because of the company's poor attitude.  My daughter got the measels and a week later, so did my son.   My boss tried to insist that I came in, despite telling him there was nobody to look after the kids.  He was totally unsympathetic.

I'm sorry my opinion will differ here, but when my sister and I were young my mother worked part-time and my father worked shifts.  This meant we never came home to an empty house and someone was usually there or could accommodate us if sick.

Our lifestyles have changed now.  It takes 2 incomes to support a mortgage and a family.  Fortunately I have no dependents and therefore have no children to worry about - that's my choice.  However I understand many women out there for whatever reason, still want or have to work.  My opinion on this is that if that is the case, then you make the necessary arrangements to accommodate your children when they are sick - be that a childminder or such like.

It's so easy for young couples these days to jump into marriage and then decide to have a family when they haven't really thought of all the pros and cons.  If you are lucky enough to work flexi or even work from home then you have it made.  I don't envy any of you who have to make these choices.

Gee, I must disagree with you to a point.  My husband and I spent 10+ years together before we had babies.  As far as being prepared, I'd say we were as prepared as anyone could be.  We were both set up in good careers, set comfortably financially, and able to afford the necessary daycare, so I could return to work.  But when the babies get sick, one of us must take off work to stay at home with them.  I do not have the option, nor does hubby, to work flex-hours, or different tours, as these are set by the companies.  For you to say that parents are irresponsible for having kids and not being able to make alternative arrangements for their care when they get sick and report to work as normal, well, let's say it's small-minded.  My alternative arrangement is to either take off work, or for my husband to.  If I had an alternative, I might not take it even, because my priority is to my family, and if my child is sick and is needing a mother or father to make them feel better -- and help them get healthy faster by getting that positive and loving feeling from us -- then that's where I'll be.  If my job can't do without me for a day or 2, then I'd say I'm in the wrong career or the wrong office.  I don't anyone of us who is so important that if we're gone for a day or 2 that the whole office comes to a halt -- it might stumble, but it continues.

Me, I don't send my kids to school sick if I can help it.  If I think it's just a passing thing, then I might, but I also let my boss know as soon as I come in that I may be called out due to a sick child.  Luckily my company has a good leave policy and we're able to use our annual leave as well as sick leave to take care of family members when needed.  And bossie is real understanding when I have to call in first thing in the morning and tell him that I have a sick baby and have to stay home.  He knows that when I do return to work, I'll put my all into it, and if I were to come in and leave my baby with someone else, I'd be worrying and only 50-70% "here".

Also, note that not everyone has the resources available to have alternative arrangements set up for when their kids get sick.  For the first time since I left home, I have family around that may be availble to sit with a sick child if/when needed.  Until my father moved down here, I had no other options, as daycares won't take them when they're sick.  And my father is not comfortable with babies, so even he's not really available until the boys are a bit older -- unless it's only for a very short timeframe.  So remember, not everyone has the same options and what is right for some may not work for others.

CountriGal
Peer Moderator

Very well said, GC.  I never thought I'd be a single mother of three with no support or family around.  So as you can see, the best made plans don't always work out. I have to take time off when my children are sick, I have no choice.  

When I'm at work I give it my all and if I know that I'm going to be out for a couple of days, I will take work home, but that's no guarantee that I will get a chance to work on it.  Plus, if I'm not in the office, if it's an emergency, I can be reached by landline phone, cell phone, or email.  

I don't have kids, from choice, but I remember my childhood. My Dad was disabled and looked after the house while Mum travelled in her job. I was very close to my Dad, but I wanted my Mum there a lot more than she was, even at 59 I remember how much I missed her. We had very little money and I'm not criticising them in any way, nor anyone here. That's just how it had to be for us.

It's my feeling that employers are going to have to have a drastic change of policy on family issues. The UK workforce works longer hours than most of Europe, and I don't think its any coincidence that in the recent UNICEF report on the state of the world's children, the UK ranks lowest of the highly developed nations in many ways regarding children: their happiness, time parents and children spend together, shared family meals, health care, mutual respect, diet, education, highest in binge drinking and substance abuse, and more. It's fatuous to think there's no connection between our employment policies and the wellbeing of our children. People who raise kids today are between a rock and a hard place. Raising kids is the most fundamental thing the human race does - survival of the species - and there just has to be a radical change of attitude by political leaders, to get themselves educated about life's realities, show some leadership, and devise genuinely family friendly policies that let people earn a decent living and devote the time to their kids that they want to. The world won't end if this happens, despite what the 'captains of industry' would have us believe, look at Scandinavia. Would I pay higher taxes to make this possible? Actually, yes I would.

In this day and age women want to be treated as equals - equal pay, equal rights, equal status.  Why should a male boss be sympathetic to a female for having children?  One female manager in particular who I sit close to has 2 children - she travels between 1 and 2 hours to and from work every day - that's her choice.  She was hired to do a job and perform as well as managing and motivating a team of males!  If you have to continually take days off sick to look after children then that has a detrimental affect on your company, your job and yourself.  I am not putting anyone down by saying this, it's a fact.

Gee, I totally agree with you.

We are currently having a baby boom at the office and the maternity leaves are putting a strain on the rest of the team in spite of having replacements (you still have to monitor and assist the newcomers).

Wether we like it or not, it is unfortunate that it is always up to the women to care for their children ... I know that some husbands do but the less ....

Spain currently has a 4 month maternity leave that is trying to be get extended to 6 months (my company in UK have just extended it to 12 months!!!) .... do you know what will happen? ... employeers will end up chosing to employ men from now onwards to avoid these leaves ....

Don't get me wrong ... it's not that I think working women shouldn't have children, it's just that at this day and age .... I feel everything is still against us.

Duque, I hear ya.  It's been hard enough for me to obtain jobs over the years after being faced with redundancy, never mind if I have children in the equation.

We too are facing a baby boom in the office and it's been constant since I started here in August.  Yes it is indeed a woman's right but with the huge gap that leaves, staff are being poached from other departments and being seconded to cover a maternity leave.  In turn that person's job has to be covered, and so on.

A friend of mine lives in Italy and although she gets really good holidays, her maternity leave is def not as long as that in the UK.

I’m with Gee and Duque on this, for the most part.  I know that you can’t predict when your children are going to be ill and therefore have to take time out of work or get someone else to look after them but a lot of the time it will then fall to co-workers to fill in for the absent person.  

I don’t have children either – I knew at an early age that I didn’t want and wouldn’t be having them so that’s my personal choice as much as having children is a personal choice for the mums and dads out there.

However, from long experience I’ve also found – and I wonder who else has – that when it comes to working late / working holidays / whatever it’s often the “family person” who gets the best breaks and the childless one who is expected to work the holidays because “you’ve got no-one to be with so it doesn’t matter”!  And, also from personal experience, I’ve known co-workers with children to use them as an excuse for taking time out when it’s plainly only an excuse and not the reason for absence or whatever.  

Yes, I’m well aware that those opinions may cause howls of disagreement.  As I said, long personal experience!

Gem, I agree with you on this.  

For some reason, because I don't rush out of work to collect kids or drop them off somewhere, people think I have no life!  Oh G has no ties, yes she could stay behind and help out - eh, duh - did it ever occur to you that I might be having dinner with friends, have tickets for cinema/theatre, or am going home to chill out and watch a movie, go food shopping, do ironing?  I still have chores to do but that's my life and I chose it so don't punish me for not having kids.  

I have colleagues in work who envy me for having free time to myself - they can't have a drink or go out at the weekend as they need to pick up their kids from a party or football or ballet etc.  I too knew early on I didn't want children and I like it that way.  I have no interference - I can do my job and still have a social life.

Hey Gee - let's hear it for the Single Childless Woman With A Life!!

(And that's not to dismiss all the concerns about sick children and child care!)

I don't have children either, by choice, but I do have elderly parents who need me from time-to-time to take them to hospital, etc and in my opinion this is an area which needs to be given the same consideration as those with children.  I think that most people who work are likely to need time off to for family care at some time, and we should not be made to feel guilty about it.

I have three children, and have experience being a working mum and stay at home mum. Two of my children are rarely ill, they don't even get colds.  The third was diagnosed with leukaemia in Oct 2004.  At the time I worked for a company part-time and they were supportive to start with, however after three months, the death of a close family member and my own health problem (stress) I started to get the back stabbing and people questionning my work, I found myself working extra hours, taking work home with me  to try to make up the time. After a short while, I quit the job.  The actual amount of time I had taken off in the three months was less than 3 days for her illness and 2 days for the funeral of my relative. The administrator next to me, who was childless had taken 16 days illness in the same time.

When a child is ill the best place for it to be is with the parent. Childminders, nurseries etc will not take a child who is ill and not all of us have grandparents who are available/able/willing to be backup childcarers.

It's only recently that my husband has returned to work after caring for the eldest child, and completing his degree.  We live frugally, are both educated and hard working.  

We set the example for our children. If you want something you work for it, if you are ill, then you work as best you can.  I resent being told you have kids, you shouldn't work or should only work part-time.  If more companies had family friendly policies then it wouldn't be such a problem.

My current boss is very understanding, he appreciates my work and knows in the balance that I will work through dinners, extra hours where I can.

Work/home balance is very difficult to juggle.

Hi everyone

I'm entering this to simply say remember to play nice in here or else!

It is everyone's right to have children or not have children.  Nobody can be expected to leave children who are sick behind at home to come into work if there is nobody to look after them - besides being illegal here in the UK, it's downright uncaring of both parent/employer to do so, and if the company is big enough, then HR should know about the employer's attitude.

I know that maternity leave can put huge pressures on smaller companies - as can paternity leave - but that's something individuals have to work out.

I don't really think anyone goes into having a family these days without thinking things through , and please remember that things don't always work out the way we think they will - infertility, illness, etc, etc.  Some of the things said in here are verging on hurtful for a lot of us, so back to my original statement.

PLEASE PLAY NICE

Jackie, Peer Moderator
www.iqps.org

We have special leave available in my company to deal with urgent domestic distress.  This covers a multitude of things including sick relatives.

Some of our mothers - especially those with very young children - will use up vacation or work from home.  Generally, my company tries to be very understanding about these matters.  

Working parents can be seen as a difficult thing for employers, and can cause resentment amongst those employees who don't have children.   Nursery care is hideously expensive and nannies (surprisingly cheaper, especially if one nanny-shares) are not always the best thing.

What it comes down to is retention of valued employees whilst recognising that people have lives outside work.  

R.

Currently, most of our admin staff are at the age where they have already had their children or know they won't be having them - so maternity leave isn't an issue at the moment.

Conversely, though, that means that a lot of us are at the age where our parents need our time and attention.  When I was a secretary and sharing an office with a co-worker, she had to take time off to care for her parents (dr. appts, hospitalizations, surgical procedures, etc.).  It wasn't a block of time but rather days or hours here and there.  At one point, she apologized to me because of all the time I had covered for her.  I told her then that the way I looked at it was that I was covering for her now but someday she would be doing the same for me (her parents are slightly older than mine, so mine were healthy at the time).  I think she was relieved that I felt that way, and it gave her one less thing to worry about during that stressful time.

As one poster mentioned above, the UK has the worst family friendly policies in Europe and what, according to DD's latest news report, is going to increase flexible working and drive up the number of people  working from home?  Not family friendly policies  but Environmental Policies!!!

UK Home Page - News Alerts:  UK Workers Will Go Green Or Go Home.
http://www.deskdemon.com/pages/uk/newsalert/details?id=158

'...Companies wanting to recruit the best candidates are facing a growing trend amongst UK workers (37%) who will only consider roles offering flexible working. The business landscape is set to change within just 5-10 years, as a further two thirds of UK workers are demanding home working within that time scale. ...'

On another note, I'm glad that the issues concerning care for elderly parents has been mentioned.  Regardless of whether you have children, elderly relatives  to care for or both - seems to me that whether we like it or not, women take on the responsibility.   I know men (or some men) do try to do their bit - but it still falls to us to drop everything and take the lion's share.  That's our lot and (am I speaking out of turn?) the majority of us put up, shut up and get on with it.

If we're to keep everything consistent here, I guess Dusty should have thought about having to care for sick parents before she put a burden on the rest of us by coming to work while her parents are still alive.

Yes, I do think it's small-minded. In my office, some have children and some do not. Fathers are as likely as mothers to take off with a sick child. Happens all the time. The company allows us to use our sick leave for this purpose--or to care for a sick parent. Family medical leave is available if your parent or, heaven forbid, your child is ill for an extended period. Meanwhile, single or childless or even parentless people do get sick and miss work. Flu, cold, gastrointestinal disturbance or worse--they miss work. Do I sit around whinging that I have to make up the work of people because they had the nerve to go and get sick on my shift? I should say not.

I'm no longer at the stage of my life when I'll be having more babies (I hope). A co-worker recently did have a baby and yes, the other two admins in our group had to pick up the slack. One of us is a mother and the other is not--and it never occurred to us to whine and complain that we had to do her work while she enjoyed time off with a newborn. I'm sure not going to be moaning about this when that child is in the work force and I'm on social security.

My husband is now able to share equally in missing work when our child is sick. It wasn't always so. It made more sense for me to miss, because if one of us were to be let go because of absences, it might as well be the one who earns less. We are fortunate in having a healthy kid who rarely misses school for illness.

My mother used to have to lie about being ill herself if she had to stay home from work with us. Maybe the angry childless and the furious parentless would like to go back to that system.

Edited by dettu on 22/02/07 02:33 PM.

Hang on Dettu .... I don't think there is any "angry childless and the furious parentless" people around here .... we are just complaining about the system.

I am fortunate as though we do not have a family sick leave policy here, my boss is sufficientely considerate to let us have any time off we need, regardless its for ourselves, our partners, children or family. He's even let me have time off when one of my pets was seriously ill.

However others are not as fortunate as me. In Spain practically a 90% of the companies couldn't give a damm for family friendly policies and if they have to "put up" for example with a six month maternity leave they will end up choosing male workers, unless men are eventually also entitled to a 6 month leave. Again they will prefer choosing male workers because it will be less likely they will have to end up caring for ill children.

I can tell you, it is totally against the law in Spain to fire a pregnant woman, but they get fired every day!!! The excuse is that either the contract has ended or because of "operational reasons".

Whatever we do or what ever benefits we can get, we will always end up loosing.

It's interesting to see how many admins here don't have children by choice, I am included in that group.  I made the choice early on that having children just isn't for me though I love kids and love my nephews/niece.

There are 9 administrative assistants in my group, I had a 3-month period last year during which 3 of them were out at the same time for maternity leave. Two had children and one adopted a child. But they aren't the only ones who have taken leaves, I've had another that has taken time off twice for surgery, one more more has a surgery coming up and I, myself, took time last month for my own surgery. My boss even allowed me time off when my cat became ill in December and I spent 2 days at the vet with him.

My belief, and thankfully also my boss's/company's belief, is that when you care about employees as people and support them in a healthy balance of work/home, then everyone is happier. They are better (and happier) employees, turnover is lower and there is a positive financial impact.

LOL ... who jinxed me?   Talk about tempting fate.  Guess who is off work today with her son!

Luckily today my boss is out of the office (means the phones will be dead) and my in tray is empty bar rearranging the bosses filing.

Callie

Just in relation to this and more recently when I was off sick, my company changed their sick leave policy due to too many people taking sick days off when they prob weren't sick at all.  This said they now deduct pay for any sick days in your first year of employment.  You will understand my frustration that I was so ill I could hardly walk, get out of bed etc or do any of the things that come as second nature to me.  Instead of 4 days sick, I took 2 as sick and 2 as annual leave.

Therefore we are encouraged not to be off sick.  A colleague of mine who has been here for quite some years, was pulled by HR the other day to discuss his sick leave.  This relates to maybe 3 or 4 periods of sickness where the person  was actually ill and could not come to work.  Would they rather we came in and died at our desks to prove how sick we are?

The frustration is there are lots of posters here who seem to have very sympathetic companies/bosses - lucky you.  However it seems many companies don't want you to be off sick and if you are (or your children are) you must have a good excuse, a doctor's line or take your sick time as leave for fear of losing pay.

I agree Gee ... my boss is hugely sympathetic with me and he knows I'll make up the time elsewhere (ie I've been in for 15 minutes this morning, sorted email etc and will go in at 4 pm to make sure there's nothing urgent and to process our figures for him), I've left messages saying that at 4 if there is anything I'll go in tomorrow morning and make up the time.

I've been with the company for 8 months and they have the same policy, no sick pay for the first year, and in the second year it's at the Manager's discretion.  I've had one day off so far, and don't anticipate being paid for having today off (although knowing the way my boss works, he may well pay me anyway because I make up the time).

There was an interesting article on the front page recent about Presenteeism, which my company now suffers from as a result, someone is always ill and then it spreads around the offices.

Callie

Calista,  we've had a bad round of the flu in here since way before Christmas.  Some people are still sick, but are in work.

My grievance is, if parents are allowed time off to look after sick children, where is fair employment and equal rights - should I be allowed that time off too?

Absolutely Gee ... I don't see any difference and to me it would be discrimination.  Employers often think of "Family Friendly" policies in terms of parents of small children, but rarely the opposite way round and I do think that many overlook such matters.  

Callie

Duque,  your conclusions may be a bit premature.  All is not necessarily lost.

With more regulations being uniformed across the EU there will probably be more of an introduction to "Paternity Leave" which, for those dads out there who know about it, is already in use (not necessarily widespread but it is being done!).  Who's to say that employers won't get just as miffed at having to allow for (eventually) paid maternity leave!?!

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Jess

According to the latest research, reported on this site, sickies are costing the Uk between £10 - £12 billion a year.  I think that's just for staff sickness, let alone taking time off work for family care.  It also states that Brits take off 27-million alcohol-related sick days plus days after the death of a dog.  

Whilst I can understand that companies can get very fed up with staff absences (inconvenience, cost etc.,), I'm not sure what they can do about it.   If they want to keep reliable, contientious staff, who don't abuse the system then, in my opinion, they have to allow for family friendly policies - otherwise long term, they'll lose out on the good workers, who, when push comes to shove are most likely to put family (young or old) first.   The company then has the costly business of finding new replacements and training them.

That may be the case but other companies don't operate like this.  In my last job you didn't get your salary deducted if you were sick and absences were horrendous - here you do and yet your sick leave is still queried.  It's a no-win situation for both employers and employees.  You cannot keep altering the goalposts to allow for sick parents, children or pets.  That's what we have annual and unpaid leave for.  Other staff only get their backs up when such time is given off.  It's not fair to the loyal minority who always seem to get punished by covering for staff and doing double the work.

At the end of the day companies want good, reliable staff who aren't going to abuse the system.  Would you employ a builder, plumber, architect if they were sick all the time or were regularly taking time off?

I don't believe that Brits take that number of days off for alcohol-related problems. What I think, and I have eight years of observing this in one big engineering company, is that it's more acceptable to be off sick because of something alcohol-related, like a hangover, than it is to actually be ill. In our sick society it's macho and not frowned on, to be drunk, it's a weakness actually to be ill. I was criticised by HR for being off sick with a 'headache' (which was a migraine), when a colleague who was off the same day with an admitted hangover wasn't hauled over the coals, he was just a 'good old boy'. I'm not sure that a woman with a hangover would have been given the same latitude.

I've felt discriminated against when I've had to cover for certain family-related absences, although I'm basically sympathetic to their problem. IMHO, one answer to this is for more flexitime working, and more flexible hours within those arrangements.

We're not going to solve this problem until it's addressed as a societal issue:  employment laws, family rights and it involves the tax system and environmental issues that have been mentioned already.

I hear you, duque--one of my fellow admins just got fired this month and her first baby is due at the end of next month.

Our company's benefits are better than most--here fathers can take off several weeks with a new baby. I only know a couple of fathers who have done it, but the benefit is there if they want it.

Hi Geminigirl,
I agree with you completely.  We have admin staff at my company who feel, that because they have a child, they can schedule themselves however they please.  One works flextime because she has to be home for her 13-year old.  The other can never work late on Thursday.  I have older children (17 and 20) and am often stuck here late with the admin who has no children.  When my children were younger, they understood that sometimes I had to work late because I was part of a team and had to support my team.